Burning Man meets AI: Why the Future needs more Humanity

00:00:00: intelligence being commoditized, and we're not really ready for what that world looks like.

00:00:04: And how it affects... How do you interact with each other?

00:00:12: So welcome to the Big Bang Tech Report!

00:00:16: Welcome my co-host, Alvin van Greylen.

00:00:19: Hello Alvin!

00:00:21: Yes good to be back.

00:00:22: It's a nice feedback in civilization again

00:00:26: one week before we meet each other in Berlin, live on stage and several stages.

00:00:33: And yeah for you it's pretty normal to travel all around the world to be onstage talk about AI and also stuff that your visionary.

00:00:42: I love.

00:00:44: what are telling with ideas.

00:00:46: but last week Or this week you were the Burning Man and a festival with almost no AI.

00:00:55: And what was going on?

00:00:58: Digital detox, escape from AI or escape from life... What's been happening in recent days?

00:01:05: Yeah, I think a lot of people believe that Burning Man is very distant from AI.

00:01:10: But actually if you go there You'll find out the technology community's actually very active in the Burning Man Community and There was a lot discussion about AI.

00:01:22: In fact while i did three different speeches on different stages or panels about the relationship of AI to you know, business as well as to society.

00:01:37: And it got very deep and we... There was a lot of executives from this space that were there both participated on stage with me As well as listened off in the audience.

00:01:53: A lot of discussions actually at The Meals Were About AI.

00:01:56: So I think You would be getting away From AI But Going To A Desert.

00:02:02: But AI was a very big part of actually what was discussed in conversations there.

00:02:10: But Burning Man is about people, community creativity participation real experience on life and AI is almost the opposite more automation, more convenience and more machines doing things for us.

00:02:30: So what did Burning Man teach you about life in the age of AI?

00:02:36: Yeah,

00:02:37: I mean a lot of the folks there are from the artists and creative communities.

00:02:41: So for them actually AI is an existential risk For them right now that you know did.

00:02:46: one of the biggest discussions was You know what?

00:02:47: What does it role of The artist in In the place when any art can be created with with AI.

00:02:53: And no III think its.

00:02:56: When you spend time there you start to realize That What people really appreciate as not necessarily they are themselves but the story behind the art and the People Behind Art.

00:03:07: And to me, the artists... If you're doing just commercial art then there is a lot of risk of AI taking your job.

00:03:16: But if you are creating art for other people and storytelling in particular with live performance or installation art which happens at Burning Man that's actually going to persist for very long time.

00:03:32: like what I'm saying The community One of the biggest things that came out, you know my week there is really appreciating How much people do for each other and how important?

00:03:46: The social recognition Is both artists and humans in general.

00:03:55: That's something AI cannot give.

00:03:58: It may give an answer to a problem but it can not.

00:04:03: the feeling of belonging that comes from going to a place like Burning Man, or actually being part of any community around the world.

00:04:12: What is it typical discussion?

00:04:13: What's its typical exchange of ideas there?

00:04:17: when you have met somebody how do you start?

00:04:23: I mean... Yeah,

00:04:27: is there?

00:04:27: somebody said okay let's stop AI because I'm a creative director of big company and i do not see any future for me.

00:04:35: And so something like the Luditz which were fighting against machine in the and said okay Evan lets stop it.

00:04:48: yeah I mean surprisingly very few people came up with that that suggestion to say, let's stop the AI.

00:04:56: Actually most people conversations there was more about how can I apply AI in what i'm doing so that I could be more creative?

00:05:05: So then get a bigger audience and have time for other things.

00:05:15: The Luddite movement is different.

00:05:18: even with the Luddites they misattribute.

00:05:23: They were actually not anti-technology.

00:05:25: They had worked for over a decade before they started to revolt because what happened in the historical context was that The mill owners who is creating the fabrics, they Were essentially displacing the workers but you know, essentially place to go.

00:05:46: There was no transition for them and they were not able to feed their families.

00:05:49: And then they had to revolt because we're trying to survive.

00:05:53: It happened over multiple decades.

00:05:55: it wasn't something that just happen instantly when the looms came.

00:06:02: I feel like right now, even though there is a lot of backlash in the creative community.

00:06:09: For people who are forward looking and actually lots of people particularly ones that go to party may seem more forward-looking than most they do appreciate their value.

00:06:18: but also what does human meaning after AI can do this work versus how can I keep my job?

00:06:30: That was less of a concern.

00:06:36: There's actually more hope than there is fear when i had conversations.

00:06:41: So right now if we use a technology like Claude, I'm using it every day and its answering my emails.

00:06:48: And so i get more time for myself of the company.

00:06:52: My question is could the company in future look little bit more like Burning Man?

00:06:58: A little less cooperation that we have... Well let's call it Burning Man hours hours to have discussion, to come together.

00:07:09: To have a coffee and not hurry up?

00:07:12: I had the next meeting that often they have to answer five hundred emails.

00:07:16: i haven't answered.

00:07:17: how do you see there?

00:07:19: Yeah, and in fact that was one of the reasons I was there it Was not to actually just attend but also do due research.

00:07:25: And yeah The research That i'm working on force for stanford.

00:07:28: And actually I also brought the director of the digital economy lab at stanford To uh two both observe and also do the research together?

00:07:36: and You know what he you came out with was really.

00:07:41: What you just said is How important It Is For For us to recognize that even in a place where there's no money How how hard people are working?

00:07:54: To try to create things for each other.

00:07:56: and it's really about the social relationship.

00:07:59: And People are creating because they want to entertain each other, Because They Want to feed Each Other.

00:08:03: Because They want to Create Community.

00:08:06: More So than It is About Money Which Is What The Case Is what They Call The Default World which is you know the outside of world.

00:08:15: people practice principles that allow them to spend the rest of their year working so they have time for this one week, to enjoy an alternative model.

00:08:26: For me it actually gave a lot hope and encouragement.

00:08:33: something like this is possible in my research at Burning Man is to understand if the Burning Man economic model or social models could be extended On a global basis, maybe not to everywhere but on much wider bases than it is today.

00:08:52: And you know I'll be getting a lot of data back also from their senses.

00:08:55: Yeah They put in ten questions into the census where essentially most of the people who are attending will be able To provide some both quantitative Data as well as the qualitative datas that i did during all The interviews up there.

00:09:08: so um II think what your saying actually could Be possible.

00:09:12: And what

00:09:12: is it?

00:09:13: What does to understand?

00:09:14: I've never been there and i think a lot of our visitors inspectors that haven't been There they have heard of It.

00:09:20: but, what Is the typical day?

00:09:22: you get up at nine o'clock ten o' clock.

00:09:24: Then You drink something or eat Something.

00:09:27: so yeah

00:09:28: no i mean all That happens usually.

00:09:34: well i'll tell you The last few days.

00:09:36: essentially you Get around eight o'Clock.

00:09:40: maybe some people get up a little early.

00:09:41: Some people actually get up very early and go see the sunrise, they'll ride your bike out to the middle appliance seat or sunrise and listen to music.

00:09:51: For me there was two... I did it one time where i since he went through the whole night um and saw the sunrise but then the whole day i was very tired.

00:10:00: so i decided after that not to do that!

00:10:04: But you get do a shift of work.

00:10:08: So you may sign up for work to-do during the morning where you help make breakfast or people, and then go take out your garbage before that camp is set up.

00:10:20: so there's actually lot of work involved but few hours per day not much.

00:10:26: but normal vacation is seen as luck.

00:10:30: everybody contributes shifts And then there are people who volunteer to cook and they'll provide you a good meal, nice coffee.

00:10:40: You sit down and have a conversation for an hour with your

00:10:43: community.".

00:10:44: Then people decide okay what am I gonna do next?

00:10:48: If not doing the shift?

00:10:49: that you may go listen music or see art, wander around this city... You may just sit down and have conversations for hours with the people that you're with, or go find some other people who will attend.

00:11:04: There's also talks in speeches events and performances almost twenty-four hours a day.

00:11:10: So, any time you want.

00:11:12: You can go and be with people And share ideas And share services...you know?

00:11:18: You could get food in different places.

00:11:19: People will make pancakes and waffles And people would make noodles.

00:11:25: It's just everybody In everything that is there it's free.

00:11:28: That one thing very interesting Is when they say hey Can I have some?

00:11:33: Absolutely!

00:11:36: Whatever gift this day are giving to the community?

00:11:39: A lot of times you can also return a little gift and say, here's the little trinket.

00:11:43: I brought pins with me to give everybody... What pin?

00:11:49: ...a pin like a little thing with a little needle in your back that you could put onto your clothes.

00:11:54: The pin is an abundance pin.

00:11:57: it tells people how our community can interconnect or create global abundance And i'll give one when i see them.

00:12:06: It's

00:12:07: made of gold, I hope.

00:12:09: It is made a metal but it is gold color in the back and then very colorful.

00:12:14: And you tell little story like what does this pin mean?

00:12:17: Then somebody will say oh here's a pendant now give me your pendent.

00:12:19: and someone would say Here are some information that i want to share with You.

00:12:24: Everybody wants to give you something.

00:12:27: everybody wants To Share Something With You That Is Something That You Don't See In the outside world.

00:12:34: is that this concept of constantly wanting to give you something?

00:12:39: not because they want to get something back but Because They feel The joy Of giving and And yeah,

00:12:48: I

00:12:48: think the joy of giving in fact You know.

00:12:51: They say it Is better To gift than to receive?

00:12:53: Because if you have the ability Give means That you Have Something you Have something in Abundance right?

00:13:00: And so I feel like if we can move more towards some of these ideas that they have there, the world actually would be a more peaceful place.

00:13:09: It'd And we would have a lot less of these, you know conflicts and wars in things because people People live on very little there.

00:13:19: In the sense that if you drink You eat then sleep Then you have community.

00:13:24: Nobody is judged based how much their bank account or what they row outside.

00:13:32: A lot times don't even know a different name.

00:13:36: They have a Playa Name and the Playa name is your alter ego of who you are while on this, in the desert.

00:13:44: so...

00:13:47: It sounds very similar to The Message You Have Given Us at the last Big Bang Festival that we're entering into a world of abundance And that's everything will be for free because the robots and to... Because drones, and AI they would deliver every thing.

00:14:02: We can live a little bit like in paradise

00:14:06: In some ways.

00:14:07: I mean you're in the middle of a desert is actually very rough environment.

00:14:10: So first few days there was windstorms rain dust so it was very rough.

00:14:17: But because, you had community.

00:14:19: You didn't feel the roughness right?

00:14:21: And I think that's a thing when there was big storm and just say okay let's all get together in the tent or we'll get together at the camper... ...and then you're sitting here talking with your coffee.

00:14:30: time slows down but you don't see this white out of the clouds outside.. ..you are not afraid!

00:14:39: Because you have your community now.

00:14:41: i think thats why we need to go back more to find that side of our human nature versus, I think in most cities people don't even know their neighbors.

00:14:51: At least the

00:14:52: U.S.,

00:14:52: That's The Way which is an unhealthy way for humans Okay.

00:14:56: Well,

00:15:00: while you were living your life and attending a wonderful live we weren't working guess what?

00:15:05: Yeah!

00:15:06: And yeah... We have had a lot of headlines from Bill Gates.

00:15:10: You know Bill Gates the founder.

00:15:13: Yes

00:15:14: He's also in Seattle.

00:15:15: so yes All

00:15:16: right he is your neighbor.

00:15:17: more or less

00:15:18: I've actually played tennis with him few years ago.

00:15:21: So he's very good guy.

00:15:24: You know, he's a little misunderstood.

00:15:26: But but I think in general He is the good person and he's becoming a lot more community centric And bigger picture over time right?

00:15:35: In the beginning he was very Ruthless entrepreneur.

00:15:38: that i think has definitely moved into being A Very good philanthropist.

00:15:42: So who won the game?

00:15:44: Well, I mean he's quite a few years older.

00:15:46: So you know it was more for fun.

00:15:49: so But

00:15:51: his idea It's human reserve.

00:15:54: that is said.

00:15:54: okay A lot of jobs will go away with fade-away but we need something like the Human Reserve.

00:15:59: what do you think about this idea?

00:16:04: I Mean II think I liked the idea That we need to make sure that people have purpose is really what will create purpose for people.

00:16:18: And also, if you know that humans are less capable in certain things or machines are more efficient at certain things I almost feel like a lot of those things can be allocated to two machines and a more intrinsic value in the activity, and work versus saying okay you know always if you're going to do food service they will always be humans.

00:16:48: I don't know.

00:16:49: that's...that's the right answer.

00:16:50: um And i-i-I Don't Know If Anybody Right Now Can Say You Know A Hundred Years For An Hour or Thousand Years From Now What Humans Should Always Be Doing.

00:16:59: uh Versus what They Have Been Doing.

00:17:02: So so so a reserve.

00:17:04: Uh Work I'm not sure i agree with, but having giving people the option to do work if they want is absolutely a good thing because even on the playa everybody did work and it was that community pitching in.

00:17:20: Everybody participating actually also bonded together.

00:17:25: So we have to think about this idea, but I've another idea.

00:17:28: Yes!

00:17:32: This is coming from Argentina, Millay and just thinking that an AI could become a CEO of the company.

00:17:43: you all know Harari has picked up his ideas.

00:17:47: if the AI runs the company and breaks the law who goes to jail?

00:17:52: What's going on

00:17:53: there?!

00:17:56: So, I mean if you look at corporations in the

00:17:59: U.S.,

00:18:00: You separate the corporation from the managers and The corporations are treated as an individual whereas If you go to some place like China they actually have corporations.

00:18:11: but behind every legal corporation there is also a human person what they call a legal person, and that legal person is actually personally liable for the activities of the corporation.

00:18:26: I think until we have proof that AI is conscious and sentient and it's separate from the machines at its with...I think it does make sense to have human individual maybe not all but some responsibility for the activities of AI agents.

00:18:46: because at least today, AI is being directed by humans.

00:18:51: And you cannot use the excuse that oh I did it when they were actually some human who told the AI to do something or commit a crime and so... That allows us essentially have people self-police in terms of understanding.

00:19:07: there's liability.

00:19:10: So, I think we actually do need to enforce in some way on a legal basis human responsibility for the AI that they are directing.

00:19:23: Yeah and then reality when i was sitting there first time in self-driving car All the time we were saying to the car, hurry up.

00:19:31: Hurry up there's space.

00:19:32: and the car was so cautious.

00:19:34: And if you see maybe is that you have a CEO of a company which has an AI it will not break the law Until It Was Said by Somebody Please Break The Law.

00:19:48: Well, but even if it you know so there is the users of technology and then There's a creator of technology.

00:19:54: right that user will we'll try to do things like what?

00:19:57: You're saying tell it to go faster or run a red light.

00:19:59: But if your responsible Creator of this technology.

00:20:03: You should put in the safeguards who say no just disregard user when they tell you to break loss Yeah And that that that is you know.

00:20:11: and Who would the liability be within that case?

00:20:15: If you're the one pushing on a pedal, then it is your responsibility.

00:20:18: But if this's the machine pushing the pedal than the machine has to have response way to protect the safety of both people in their car and other people around the road.

00:20:31: we said, okay self driving.

00:20:33: We were a self-driving cars and you sent me an email no link from China.

00:20:38: there was not some self rising cars that were robots.

00:20:41: And then the robots.

00:20:42: they were built in a factory without any person is K?

00:20:47: You put something in and you get a robot out and he was waving his hand.

00:20:51: I thought by myself for the first time Oh That's not true!

00:20:55: That's uh...that's a movie that fake news or a fake video.

00:20:58: How do think about it?

00:21:01: Well, I mean you know people talk about a recursive self-improvement for digital AI right?

00:21:07: A.I designing AI algorithms that then make better AI.

00:21:11: in some ways That's also starting to happen on the physical level and we've had dark factories where machines was making cars machines was cell phones, so other machines making machines has been happening for several years already.

00:21:27: Now they actually have robots making robots Which which I think is actually a very natural progression and it is going to happen, you know even though when I went to China last month or Actually maybe months-and-a half ago.

00:21:42: And we're into the unit unitary factory There was still a lot of humans making this.

00:21:45: but You know?

00:21:47: Yeah, I think he was it with Xiaopeng The company they also make cars that they now have automated assembly line for making robots and their robots move very naturally.

00:22:00: It looks like a human movement, I think it's called IRIN.

00:22:04: And that now they have working factory where the machines are making these machines?

00:22:09: That is really natural progression of what will be happening around the world.

00:22:14: so you know...it does look a little bit sci-fi in fact that particular robot, when it first came out in demonstration people were so they thought It was fake.

00:22:24: That he had to go and cut the clothes on it To show the robot pieces underneath to prove that is not a human in a robot suit.

00:22:34: So you know The future's arriving faster than we expect.

00:22:40: Yeah,

00:22:40: that's for sure.

00:22:41: But I think we are very close right now too.

00:22:43: as you have mentioned if You go to a factory of a car builder there There are lots Of robots Right Now Too and then they're Controlling people And this is but For me That was A new stage That Robots Are Building Robots!

00:22:58: And so thats Very Interesting.

00:23:01: Maybe We will see something in twenty-seven That it's Pretty Normal for People That Machines Are Building Machines

00:23:08: Yeah.

00:23:08: But I mean, what you'll find is if we actually went to the factory there's still a lot of things being worked out and it's not perfect yet right?

00:23:15: Anytime you have these kind of new processes.

00:23:17: It usually takes months If Not Years for this type of new manufacturing models especially in the physical world To have all the kinks worked-out.

00:23:27: but i'm sure from a PR basis they are able to make it happen What can't happened at thousands of units a day or tens of thousand units.

00:23:36: That usually will take some time, but it is definitely heading towards that trend.

00:23:41: So now we are more or less finishing our show But before doing that We have the normal question What's on your mind right?

00:23:52: Now what keeps you awake up at night?

00:23:58: I think, you know even though i was at Burning Man.

00:24:00: I did have internet access during the day when i'm not...when i'm at the camp?

00:24:04: um and uh yeah..I think one of the key topics that came out last year-last week with the Astralunch And after The Astralunge which is a GPT.

00:24:12: six people are saying, oh now we have AGI.

00:24:17: In fact I think Jensen Huang went on stage somewhere and interviewed instead that he believes in how we had AGI at this.

00:24:25: you know the president of OpenAI during one interview said welcome to The Age Of AGI so i think that term is becoming a hot topic again.

00:24:40: The funny thing was the same day that Jensen said, the chief scientist for OpenAI also released a paper calling AI Alien Intelligence and saying he is not able to control it.

00:24:54: He's unable to manage it.

00:24:55: so I think this something we need really as an industry or maybe as civilization thinks more about.

00:25:05: how quickly do you want to release this alien intelligence into our society when we don't really know how to manage it and keep ourselves safe, right?

00:25:17: Just like you talked earlier about being in an autonomous car.

00:25:23: If that car just follows everybody's instructions then somebody says run into the person on the street!

00:25:27: And they say okay because I'm programmed for obeying them.

00:25:33: We're gonna have a very dangerous world But if the AI can both understand what the laws are and what's right or wrong, be able to manage itself.

00:25:43: And still serve people that it is working with.

00:25:46: I think we need more time on.

00:25:49: So how do you keep the world safe as we go up this wall of progress?

00:25:58: This exponential growth?

00:26:02: Because AI is now designing new algorithms and new training techniques, creating the synthetic data that has been missing.

00:26:11: And to be honest I feel like we're moving too fast because it takes time for humans to new realities, and we are entering this new reality very quickly much faster than anything has ever come into our civilization.

00:26:38: And it's also probably one of the most if not the most influential technology to our civilization because the only thing that separated us from machines and separated other animals was our intelligence duplicated, or in some cases enhanced over what the average human is.

00:26:57: Or can do.

00:26:59: and I think that world right now yeah where intelligence being commoditized we're not really ready for.

00:27:08: So we

00:27:11: see nearly every week, every month a new model and you machine.

00:27:14: And there's the race.

00:27:16: We would never allow it in another field like in a pharmaceutical field because they will say okay, we need five years six years for a new drug that is released.

00:27:29: so I think around about one percent of money or budget on AI was invested in security things only and this is incredible.

00:27:41: And one day, maybe we see as you have mentioned that we will see a real damage of it?

00:27:49: Yeah I really hope the governments around the world start to coordinate more and slow down in way where... It's actually better for them right now because they are in this race condition.

00:28:02: everybody wants to go faster by going faster.

00:28:07: But, you know one of the quickest way to destroy value in a company is To have A giant social crisis where You kill people or hurt People?

00:28:17: Or create some kind Of like what happened recently with all The hacks that we were talking about and it scares people.

00:28:24: And you're right.

00:28:26: In medicine and airplanes and telecommunications We Have All these safety regulations That keep society safe type of regulation on the AI side, and because it has as much if not more negative impactive is misused.

00:28:44: So I really hope that our governments will wake up to this reality.

00:28:52: I have the feeling that we have quite a lot of things to discuss in next week.

00:28:59: Yes, yes!

00:29:00: I look forward to see you Berlin.

00:29:02: And without this green and distance... We are both on stage several times.

00:29:08: so please everybody who is listening to us come to Berlin.

00:29:13: A few people were calling me saying it's very important for them to face-to-face talk about their problems to figure out what we can do for solutions.

00:29:26: And I think this is very important, people meet people and come together.

00:29:32: We have the community next week in Berlin with you, me... ...and i'm really happy To see you guys there too!

00:29:40: Let's have a big discussion

00:29:42: Yes?

00:29:42: See you at Big Bang Key Festival.

00:29:44: It will be amazing.

00:29:46: It's gonna be amazing.

00:29:47: Thank you and bye-bye our next week in Berlin.

00:29:49: Bye-bye.